Why I don't believe "Satan"

I hope to explain what from the Bible convinced me about different doctrines that do seem so opposite my previous beliefs....actually hell was the first topic that changed, but my process was that was actually held in my former Baptist church- and what we did there was went through the Bible and anytime the word "hell" was used we read in context what was being discussed...

that includes Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna....conclusions there...
sheol and hades refer to the grave, and gehenna referred to a punishment for unfaithful...I guess I will post ever instance though granted it did take use a LONG time to do it since it was only an hour a week on sunday nights back when we did it---
but I'll do that hopefully after this one, though the order does seem quite reversed now that I think about it--


The Satan topic for me like i said dissolved rather quickly when
1) the hell topic changed- since that made me question the whole "punishment" aspect and where would "Satan" be and what would he be doing if hell wasn't 'hell'
2)the Lucifer passage that most rely on...when read in context...just made me almost fall out of my chair-- no I didn't take the same approach as with hell by reading every time it was used in the Bible, but when read in CONTEXT, words like Satan, demons, devil, etc...and MOST IMPORTANTLY for me LUCIFER-- totally don't support what I had believed and/or been told my whole life...

-- OKay I should be napping now since Tyler is but maybe this evening I'll get a little rest..hopefully...because I'm choosing to do this through the 'naptime"


I say this Lucifer passage really shook my world almost as much as the hell topic did and it actually excited me and throughly convinced me--- no I don't know much of the history but I do plan to actually find a way to study that more as I am trying to study Revelation in the continuous historic interpretation as well

enough of that rambling though, eh?
ok
Isaiah...

OKay am I some great debator..hardly! lol but I can read...and what the Bible says is going to be my measuring stick not what I think...even now if for some reason I come across something contrary to what is typically taught but thte Bible says differently... well it wouldn't be the first time lets say that I'd have to go against the grain and it won't be the last...man can twist things very easily so it is with an open heart that the word must be read... if I run out of time I'll come back later and highlight and comment..but basically... I just read it and as I read I kept asking myself,, now who is it talking about? what is it saying? just monitoring the text...

I want to point out a pattern... there is a distinct pattern here of "burdens" or prophecies...
cpt 13-14 "burden of" Babylon
chpt- 15-16 "" Moab
chpt 17- Damascus




Isaiah - Chapter 13

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.


Isa 13:2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.


Isa 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, [even] them that rejoice in my highness.


Isa 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.


Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even] the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.


Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:


Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.


Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.


Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Isa 13:14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.


Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined [unto them] shall fall by the sword.


Isa 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.


Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and [as for] gold, they shall not delight in it.


Isa 13:18 [Their] bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.


Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.


Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.


Isa 13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.


Isa 13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in [their] pleasant palaces: and her time [is] near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.


Isaiah - Chapter 14

Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.


Isa 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.


Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,


Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!


Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, [and] the sceptre of the rulers.


Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.


Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.


Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.


Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.


Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?


Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.


Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


Isa 14:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?


Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.


Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, [and as] the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.


Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, [and] slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.


Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.


Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.


Isa 14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.


Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:


Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.


Isa 14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.


Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?


Isa 14:28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.


Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit [shall be] a fiery flying serpent.


Isa 14:30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.


Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, [art] dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none [shall be] alone in his appointed times.


Isa 14:32 What shall [one] then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.
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Isaiah - Chapter 15

Isa 15:1 The burden of Moab. Because in the night Ar of Moab is laid waste, [and] brought to silence; because in the night Kir of Moab is laid waste, [and] brought to silence;


Isa 15:2 He is gone up to Bajith, and to Dibon, the high places, to weep: Moab shall howl over Nebo, and over Medeba: on all their heads [shall be] baldness, [and] every beard cut off.


Isa 15:3 In their streets they shall gird themselves with sackcloth: on the tops of their houses, and in their streets, every one shall howl, weeping abundantly.


Isa 15:4 And Heshbon shall cry, and Elealeh: their voice shall be heard [even] unto Jahaz: therefore the armed soldiers of Moab shall cry out; his life shall be grievous unto him.


Isa 15:5 My heart shall cry out for Moab; his fugitives [shall flee] unto Zoar, an heifer of three years old: for by the mounting up of Luhith with weeping shall they go it up; for in the way of Horonaim they shall raise up a cry of destruction.


Isa 15:6 For the waters of Nimrim shall be desolate: for the hay is withered away, the grass faileth, there is no green thing.


Isa 15:7 Therefore the abundance they have gotten, and that which they have laid up, shall they carry away to the brook of the willows.


Isa 15:8 For the cry is gone round about the borders of Moab; the howling thereof unto Eglaim, and the howling thereof unto Beerelim.


Isa 15:9 For the waters of Dimon shall be full of blood: for I will bring more upon Dimon, lions upon him that escapeth of Moab, and upon the remnant of the land.

Isaiah - Chapter 16

Isa 16:1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.


Isa 16:2 For it shall be, [that], as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, [so] the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.


Isa 16:3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.


Isa 16:4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.


Isa 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.


Isa 16:6 We have heard of the pride of Moab; [he is] very proud: [even] of his haughtiness, and his pride, and his wrath: [but] his lies [shall] not [be] so.


Isa 16:7 Therefore shall Moab howl for Moab, every one shall howl: for the foundations of Kirhareseth shall ye mourn; surely [they are] stricken.


Isa 16:8 For the fields of Heshbon languish, [and] the vine of Sibmah: the lords of the heathen have broken down the principal plants thereof, they are come [even] unto Jazer, they wandered [through] the wilderness: her branches are stretched out, they are gone over the sea.


Isa 16:9 Therefore I will bewail with the weeping of Jazer the vine of Sibmah: I will water thee with my tears, O Heshbon, and Elealeh: for the shouting for thy summer fruits and for thy harvest is fallen.


Isa 16:10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in [their] presses; I have made [their vintage] shouting to cease.


Isa 16:11 Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh.


Isa 16:12 And it shall come to pass, when it is seen that Moab is weary on the high place, that he shall come to his sanctuary to pray; but he shall not prevail.


Isa 16:13 This [is] the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning Moab since that time.


Isa 16:14 But now the LORD hath spoken, saying, Within three years, as the years of an hireling, and the glory of Moab shall be contemned, with all that great multitude; and the remnant [shall be] very small [and] feeble.


Isaiah - Chapter 17

Isa 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from [being] a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.


Isa 17:2 The cities of Aroer [are] forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid.


Isa 17:3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.


Isa 17:4 And in that day it shall come to pass, [that] the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.


Isa 17:5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.


Isa 17:6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two [or] three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four [or] five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel.


Isa 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.


Isa 17:8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect [that] which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.


Isa 17:9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.


Isa 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:


Isa 17:11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: [but] the harvest [shall be] a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.


Isa 17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, [which] make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, [that] make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!


Isa 17:13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but [God] shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.


Isa 17:14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; [and] before the morning he [is] not. This [is] the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.
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Isaiah - Chapter 18

Isa 18:1 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which [is] beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:


Isa 18:2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, [saying], Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!


Isa 18:3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.


Isa 18:4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, [and] like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.


Isa 18:5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away [and] cut down the branches.


Isa 18:6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.


Isa 18:7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.
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Isaiah - Chapter 19

Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.


Isa 19:2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, [and] kingdom against kingdom.


Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.


Isa 19:4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.


Isa 19:5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.


Isa 19:6 And they shall turn the rivers far away; [and] the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.


Isa 19:7 The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no [more].


Isa 19:8 The fishers also shall mourn, and all they that cast angle into the brooks shall lament, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish.


Isa 19:9 Moreover they that work in fine flax, and they that weave networks, shall be confounded.


Isa 19:10 And they shall be broken in the purposes thereof, all that make sluices [and] ponds for fish.


Isa 19:11 Surely the princes of Zoan [are] fools, the counsel of the wise counsellors of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I [am] the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings?


Isa 19:12 Where [are] they? where [are] thy wise [men]? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.


Isa 19:13 The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also seduced Egypt, [even they that are] the stay of the tribes thereof.


Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken [man] staggereth in his vomit.


Isa 19:15 Neither shall there be [any] work for Egypt, which the head or tail, branch or rush, may do.


Isa 19:16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it.


Isa 19:17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.


Isa 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.


Isa 19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.


Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.


Isa 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform [it].


Isa 19:22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal [it]: and they shall return [even] to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.


Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.


Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, [even] a blessing in the midst of the land:


Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed [be] Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
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Isaiah - Chapter 20

Isa 20:1 In the year that Tartan came unto Ashdod, (when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him,) and fought against Ashdod, and took it;


Isa 20:2 At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.


Isa 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;


Isa 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with [their] buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.


Isa 20:5 And they shall be afraid and ashamed of Ethiopia their expectation, and of Egypt their glory.


Isa 20:6 And the inhabitant of this isle shall say in that day, Behold, such [is] our expectation, whither we flee for help to be delivered from the king of Assyria: and how shall we escape?

Isaiah - Chapter 21

Isa 21:1 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; [so] it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.


Isa 21:2 A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer dealeth treacherously, and the spoiler spoileth. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.


Isa 21:3 Therefore are my loins filled with pain: pangs have taken hold upon me, as the pangs of a woman that travaileth: I was bowed down at the hearing [of it]; I was dismayed at the seeing [of it].


Isa 21:4 My heart panted, fearfulness affrighted me: the night of my pleasure hath he turned into fear unto me.


Isa 21:5 Prepare the table, watch in the watchtower, eat, drink: arise, ye princes, [and] anoint the shield.


Isa 21:6 For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Go, set a watchman, let him declare what he seeth.


Isa 21:7 And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed:


Isa 21:8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:


Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, [with] a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.


Isa 21:10 O my threshing, and the corn of my floor: that which I have heard of the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, have I declared unto you.


Isa 21:11 The burden of Dumah. He calleth to me out of Seir, Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?


Isa 21:12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will enquire, enquire ye: return, come.


Isa 21:13 The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.


Isa 21:14 The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.


Isa 21:15 For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.


Isa 21:16 For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail:


Isa 21:17 And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken [it].


Isaiah - Chapter 22

Isa 22:1 The burden of the valley of vision. What aileth thee now, that thou art wholly gone up to the housetops?


Isa 22:2 Thou that art full of stirs, a tumultuous city, a joyous city: thy slain [men are] not slain with the sword, nor dead in battle.


Isa 22:3 All thy rulers are fled together, they are bound by the archers: all that are found in thee are bound together, [which] have fled from far.


Isa 22:4 Therefore said I, Look away from me; I will weep bitterly, labour not to comfort me, because of the spoiling of the daughter of my people.


Isa 22:5 For [it is] a day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord GOD of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the mountains.


Isa 22:6 And Elam bare the quiver with chariots of men [and] horsemen, and Kir uncovered the shield.


Isa 22:7 And it shall come to pass, [that] thy choicest valleys shall be full of chariots, and the horsemen shall set themselves in array at the gate.


Isa 22:8 And he discovered the covering of Judah, and thou didst look in that day to the armour of the house of the forest.


Isa 22:9 Ye have seen also the breaches of the city of David, that they are many: and ye gathered together the waters of the lower pool.


Isa 22:10 And ye have numbered the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses have ye broken down to fortify the wall.


Isa 22:11 Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.


Isa 22:12 And in that day did the Lord GOD of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:


Isa 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.


Isa 22:14 And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.


Isa 22:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, Go, get thee unto this treasurer, [even] unto Shebna, which [is] over the house, [and say],


Isa 22:16 What hast thou here? and whom hast thou here, that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, [as] he that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, [and] that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock?


Isa 22:17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee.


Isa 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee [like] a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory [shall be] the shame of thy lord's house.


Isa 22:19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down.


Isa 22:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:


Isa 22:21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.


Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.


Isa 22:23 And I will fasten him [as] a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house.


Isa 22:24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.


Isa 22:25 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that [was] upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Isaiah - Chapter 23

Isa 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.


Isa 23:2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.


Isa 23:3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, [is] her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.


Isa 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, [even] the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, [nor] bring up virgins.


Isa 23:5 As at the report concerning Egypt, [so] shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre.


Isa 23:6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle.


Isa 23:7 [Is] this your joyous [city], whose antiquity [is] of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.


Isa 23:8 Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning [city], whose merchants [are] princes, whose traffickers [are] the honourable of the earth?


Isa 23:9 The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, [and] to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth.


Isa 23:10 Pass through thy land as a river, O daughter of Tarshish: [there is] no more strength.


Isa 23:11 He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given a commandment against the merchant [city], to destroy the strong holds thereof.


Isa 23:12 And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest.


Isa 23:13 Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, [till] the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; [and] he brought it to ruin.


Isa 23:14 Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste.


Isa 23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.


Isa 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.


Isa 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.


Isa 23:18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing.

I am not finding this easy

I post on this discussion board and don't have the time to double post it all back here too- maybe I can just copy and paste when I do it- because I am not finding it easy to go back and try to find what i posted between... but here are some of the thoughts/discussions I've been having below but first---
Forgiveness- I can truly empathize with the struggle we all face with sin and battle against our own selves, but this struggle can be overcome... yes we still sin, but people's lives can change, my life has changed... what once was so exciting about certain sins... now are things to be shamed of...but really more than that--- they don't have any attraction anymore..and the shame aspect is not too strong in the sense like I see it more as a learning experience and a chance to help others... it really helps me when forgiving others when I can see how rock bottom I got in my life and that sin is sin to God... forgive others so we too will be forgiven... I wish I could undo any harm that my own sins cause to others or stumblings blocks I've put into others paths, but that isn't possible....

anyway here are some of the topics that I've been discussing lately...



If Muslims think Jesus was a prophet what did they think he prophesied about... I'd say he taught about the Kindgodom of God....




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5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.


Maybe its just my "television-formed prsumptions" but I'm not sure how different their apparell really was back then--- I mean the head coverings would be different... but didn't they were robes and stuff??? I'm not trying to be weird or anything the only other thing I can think of would be like undergarments...


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QUOTE(He-man @ May 4 2006, 05:22 PM)


QUOTE(Jeweliet01 @ May 4 2006, 12:37 PM)

15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.



When I read this it struck me as opposite as to other examples in the Bible concerning firstborns... it seems like there are several examples where one's actual "firstbornedness" takes second place to their actions.... or maybe the love towards them... okay I'm just thinking of:

Jacob and Esau... Jacob have I loved...
maybe not the exact example, but Rachel and Leah, Jacob loved Rachel more and Joseph and Benjamin were special to him

Isaac and Ishmael... I know that there are other factors with that one.. like God's way/man's way...but technically Ishmael was his firstborn... which brings me back to what caused me to stumble over these verses above in Duet.... one beloved and one hated.. that is the case here I'd say--

well any thoughts or am I just making something out of this that isn't there???
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.


Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;


Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

To show that our inheritance is redeemed for us who obey the Lord!
18 ¶ If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:





What does it mean to be cursed? In what way was he cursed?Post Preview: #257228 ·




15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.



When I read this it struck me as opposite as to other examples in the Bible concerning firstborns... it seems like there are several examples where one's actual "firstbornedness" takes second place to their actions.... or maybe the love towards them... okay I'm just thinking of:

Jacob and Esau... Jacob have I loved...
maybe not the exact example, but Rachel and Leah, Jacob loved Rachel more and Joseph and Benjamin were special to him

Isaac and Ishmael... I know that there are other factors with that one.. like God's way/man's way...but technically Ishmael was his firstborn... which brings me back to what caused me to stumble over these verses above in Duet.... one beloved and one hated.. that is the case here I'd say--

well any thoughts or am I just making something out of this that isn't there???
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.


Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;


Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



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I was wondering if Muslims get baptized and what it signifies to them if they do?
Forum: Islam · Post Preview: #256675 · Replies: 4 · Views: 62

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I meant to post this earlier...Why is Jesus referred to as being from Narareth all the time? didn't the disciples apostles know he was from bethl.? I would think they did... so why is it important that he is from Nazareth too... I have heard something about it before... but I can't remember where I heard it from in the Bible...
Forum: Daily Readings · Post Preview: #256535 · Replies: 2 · Views: 48


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What does the Qu ran (sp?) say is the hope for Muslims? since this Hadith is apparently not considered the ultimate authority in Islam... is their hope found in the OT or elsewhere?
Forum: Islam · Post Preview: #256470 · Replies: 117 · Views: 1,211
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I have something that I'd like to study some more and put something together about it- but it has to do with the verse about returning to dust

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Reject 35. That we are at liberty to serve in the army, or as police constables* , take part in politics, or recover debts by legal coercion.
* "or as police constables" was added in 1917.


Last night I witnessed a violent crime and called the police to hopefully keep it from escalating and to stop...i understand not serving in the military or police in the sense that you might be fighting gainst God's will I guess... but now I'm conflicted because indirectly I was part of the "police system" but I felt that someone had to do something...are we really commanded to be passive and just let crimes happen? it wasn't to me but does this 'no police idea' come from fighting against christ or because we are to be passive and turn the other cheek and pray for our enemies and such? I guess if someone was attacking me like i saw I'd want someone to get them to stop...didn't paul use his citizen rights to help him so are the police part of that??? I just don't know if I intervened and shouldn't have I mean I prayed for them and the children...but ...any comments will help because I'm torn about this.

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15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: 19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.


I just don't understand the desire to worship a graven image.... we say that today we have idols but they are things like the cares of the world, our jobs, etc... so why wouldn't they have similar idols...why make an actual character... nowadays I can only think of the example of maybe the Catholic churchhaving statues... but am I missing something? what still is so appealing about a graven image that they'd choose it over God? (besides you made it yourself and it doesn't respond or anything)

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John - Chapter 17

Jhn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:


Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.



-eternal life not given to everyone...but then is it really talking about life as we know it... look at the next verse....



Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


not everyone will know is that what is then being discussed?



Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


If it is true which I believe it is that Christ didn't pre-exist... then the Bible should clearly say so... this appears to say otherwise... so I'll have to spend time in the word with an honest heart to see what is really being said.

I don't want to be inserting my own interpretation here... how can it be proven strictly by scripture that this is not talking about a pre-iexistance...?


Jhn 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


Jhn 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.


Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
which makes me think even more that that verse on teh cross isn't really true because first why would he pray to forgive people who knew not what they did when he doesn't give blanket approval to everyone and also they weren't forgiven so it'd be an unanwered prayer hmmmm... anyone else hear this idea that the whole "father forgive them for they know not what they do" wasn't really said?


Jhn 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

however Christ (our example) was one with God is the same what that we are to be one

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

what scripture is this?



Jhn 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.


Jhn 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

in this sense he is saying that however he isn't o f the world we are the same way so he isn't referring to a celestial preexistance here

Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.


Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. again christ showing himself as an attainable example not that we can be sinnless but that we can sanctify ourselves throught eword

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


now we can't be a trinity soooo in whatever way Jesus was one witht he Father... that is hwo we should be one...

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


I would think that its true that its Gods foreknowledge and plan that is mentioned here but I don't want to add my own words-- here it simply says that God loved him before the foundation of the world.
Jhn 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.


Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
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QUOTE(Evangelion @ Apr 20 2006, 03:31 PM)

didymus has hit the nail on the head, jeweliet.

Scripture itself provides many other examples of identical language.

In Genesis 15:18, for example, God says that He has given the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed. Yet Abraham never possessed that land, and he still does not have it to this day. God referred to this gift in the past tense, but Abraham understood that He used figurative language. He knew that God meant "This land is predestined to be the land of you and your seed."

Ephesians 2:5-7 also uses the present tense in reference to a future event:
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Paul says that we have been "raised up together" and "made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" - even though this has not yet occurred.

Verse 22 of John 17 contains identical language. Here, Jesus speaks of the disciples in a curious way. He says:
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one
That same "glory" which had been "given" to the son (though of course it had not yet been literally given) is now referred to as if it had already[/i] been given to the disciples. Yet we know that this was not the case. Jesus is referring to the Second Advent and the reward of his followers. His words, therefore, must be read in this context.

But the figurative language of John 17 does not end there.
In verse 4, Jesus speaks of his death as if it had already been accomplished - even though it was yet to occur.


Verse 11 - "I am no longer in the world..." - though of course he clearly was still in the world.


Verse 18 - "I have sent them..." (referring to his disciples) even though he had not yet sent them.
We see this principle operating again, when God speaks to Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 1:5.
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
So, even before Jeremiah was "formed in the belly", and even before he came out of the womb, God, says that He had known Jeremiah, sanctified Jeremiah, and ordained Jeremiah as a prophet.






oh that last part was a really good example i didn't know that was said about jeremiah... these replies are helpful thank you everyone

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I thought he gave special understanding to his disciples in secret?


Jhn 18:19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.


Jhn 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.



.....

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.


Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;


Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];


Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:


Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.


Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.


Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.



Forum: Questions? Suggestions? Concerns? · Post Preview: #254618 · Replies: 5 · Views: 93


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14 And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them.

I thought it was 40 years or am i just imagining that???? why 38?
Forum: Daily Readings · Post Preview: #254301 · Replies: 11 · Views: 89

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Did Jesus really forgive sins while on earth before he died? or was he just healing and they thought that sin was equivalent with sickness?



Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.


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Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?


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Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)


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Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?


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Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
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2006, 09:49 AM)

Yes he had the authority to forgive sins, and he passed that authority on too:


QUOTE(John 20)
19 ¶ On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."





i guess the hang up i'm having is... if it was before he died...and had te possibility of sinning...how was he able to forgive the sins....i see he passed it on after he died......how is it that our sins are forgiven? wasn't it also dependent on christ's death?

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28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



What is a "resurrection of damnation"?


-Anyone know anything else about this healing pool? It seems interesting that God would heal this way.

1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
Forum: Daily Readings · Post Preview: #253030 · Replies: 12 · Views: 98


7 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


this doesn't seem to make sense if I say that I am my father's daughter that doesn't mean that I am my father? why would they think he was saying he was equal with God?
Forum: Daily Readings · Post Preview: #253029 · Replies: 1 · Views: 28


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QUOTE(JeremyHughes @ Apr 10 2006, 07:52 PM)


QUOTE(Adanac)
Not sure I want to know the dark secrets of my brothers and sisters.


I believe you can help them far better if you do. You're also far less likely to feel like "I'm the only real bad sinner in this ecclesia, everyone else only does those small 'generic' ones".



Sometimes it is a tendency on my part to think I'm surrounded by "super christians" but everyone sins and to God even the most righteous acts can be seen as filthy rags if it wasn't for his grace and mercy...

As for confessing your sins... I know that it is easier to do that with my spouse... but if there was a situation that needed prayer I think the love that's in the ecclesia would allow me the humility to present the problem... whether it is to a particular person or mentor like it was mentioned... in our case my husband and I are the only young couple everyone else is old enough to be our parents or grandparents or they are kids... so its kind of hard to find a group that is able to relate to the current situation... but there is nothing new under the sun so even older members might be able to help you more than one might realize

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QUOTE(nsr @ Apr 11 2006, 04:41 AM)

Don't worry Rev, you are not alone. We (males) all have that problem.

Finding something else to do instead is probably the best solution. Praying and asking God to help you resist the temptation is also a good idea.



although males are far more visual in this senses... it is not limited to males... women can commit adultery in real life and in their heart as well

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Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Why should we confess our fautls to one another?
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Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.


Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.


Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

OKay so if everyone is to bear their own burden how can people bear another's burdens?
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lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pide of life get us all... though i understand that its defintely a new intensity as a teenager... i've found that daily..no not just daily but pretty much CONSTANTLY saying not my will but thine Lord and remembering that we are not tempted beyond what we can bear...helps also as mentioned i believe that spending time in the Word is a great battle... and pray that your thoughts are set on thingstha are pu, lovely, honest....etc.. we all sin... it helps if you can see sn from God's perspective and want to change.... even paul talks of the battle of doing things that he doesn't want to and not doing what we should.... i would talk to you dad about it if you can but i would also prayer for sure... there is nothing new under the sun... remember what christs responses were to his temptations and struggles... hos always went back to the word it our comfort, our weapon, our hope... also... you can avoid situations that you know you might promote sin... if you find you mind going there... try to refocus on the Word...... it seems that the more times you successfully deny that sin to rule the easier possibly more encouraging itcan become... i know this is long but i have more to say still.... ALSO you have to realize that these women are more than just what they are showing they are real people.. somebody's sister, daughter etc... there are many reasons that they get into that environment... but thst doesn't mean you should compartmentalize them into being just an object... they were created by God in the same way we all were and are in the sin trap too.... maybe you could pray for them... that might help you see them differently ok i'll end my ramblings hope some of it helps.. oh and two more things ok yah i know i talk a lot but 1) exercise should help you reach some level of homeostasis with those hormones... and 2) keep yourself busy if you keep your mind from being idle you might find it easier to avoid those thoughts
Forum: Questions? Suggestions? Concerns? · Post Preview: #252163 · Replies: 51 · Views: 593


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What is the significance that the donkey was beaten 3 times?
Wherefore hast thou smitten thine these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: 33 And the saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.
Forum: Daily Readings · Post Preview: #251399 · Replies: 24 · Views: 172

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along the same lines... ALPHA and OMEGA---

how are they both?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



GOD




Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.



JESUS






Also, I understand in the way that Jeus was the first... but how is he the last? like first begotten of the dead,
Forum: Questions? Suggestions? Concerns? · Post Preview: #250958 · Replies: 20 · Views: 201

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Why did Aaron die because of what Moses did?

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. 9 And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him. 10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? 11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. 12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. 13 This is the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD, and he was sanctified in them.


23 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in mount Hor, by the coast of the land of Edom, saying, 24 Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah. 25 Take Aaron and Eleazar his son, and bring them up unto mount Hor: 26 And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there. 27 And Moses did as the LORD commanded: and they went up into mount Hor in the sight of all the congregation. 28 And Moses stripped Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son; and Aaron died there in the top of the mount: and Moses and Eleazar came down from the mount. 29 And when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron thirty days, even all the house of Israel.

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Sigh I still find myself getting confused in my mind when I try to reconcile Christ's death....its supposed to be simple, isn't it?


What's my problem...
Christ's sacrifice was representative- an example of us dying to our flesh etc..
Christ's death was literal and natural- he was a human being...but sinless...so hewas raised..


the real problem for me comes with words like ransom, and "purchasing" us with his blood...

did his death simple bring to cloise the bondage of the law and fulfillment f it and also set christ as mediator?

I just have an uneas feeling ticking at the back of my mind....did his blood "pay" a price? this sounds substitutional to me and then the substitutional argument falls apart when i think about that for a whle...


Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
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Sorry for the delay in responding. While this is not the official answer, I would suggest going through Robert Roberts "Blood of Christ" pamphlet...--
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Hi jeweliet01,

First of all lets just consider that there are several figures or "word pictures" used to describe the atonement. Here's a short list:

Atonement - we are naked and are provided with a covering
Justification - we are guilty and are pronounced innocent
Reconciliation - we are enemies and are made friends
Sanctification - we are cut off and made holy
Redemption/Ransom - we were slaves and set free

So we can't take any one of these and focus too much on it. We would be unbalanced if we did. They are meant to portray a certain aspect of the atonement but not the whole balanced truth. George Booker has more details on this in his Tiding's article "Pictures of Redemption" which is worth a read.

So why does the Bible talk about Christs blood paying the price and that a ransom needed to be made? It's actually language taken from the Old Testament for buying someone from slavery. Under the law there was the lesson of the redemption money, the half shekel to make atonement for their souls (Ex. 30:12-16; Lev. 25:47-55). The New Testament also picks up this imagery when it says "we have been bought with a price" (1 Cor. 7:22-23; 6:20; Rom. 6:20,22). The price was the blood of Christ to free us from sin and death. Not that he was our substitute but that he provided the only means by which we could be justified by faith. These are also the terms used by Paul in Rom. 3:24-25,

(Rom 3:24-25) "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: {25} Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

We were "sold under sin" (Rom. 7:14) but God has bought us by giving his only Son so we might be his servants of righteousness. The same type is in Lev. 25:55 as the children of Israel were servants to Egypt but after the Exodus (Passover) they became servants to God. The whole pattern of the Jubilee and the releasing or redemption of slaves is based on the fact that the children of Israel were God's servants whom he brought forth out of Egypt. They had in a sense been bought from the bondage of Egypt, that is sin, to now be the servants of righteousness.

Now just go back and re-read Romans chapter 6 and find all the places Paul mentions servants and being set free. Another good passage is John 8:31-36. Oh there's so many scriptures like this that it makes a really fun study.

So the ransom was not a substitute to appease the wrath of a vengeful God. It's simply meant as a beautiful word picture showing us how Christ gave his life, a price paid that no other man could give, so that we might be made free from sin and death if we believe in him.

Hope this helps,
Tim
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Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Okay so the other night my husband and I were talking to a man who believed in the trinity-- I asked well how can you blaspheme against one part of your trinity and not the other... he said well it was just the "man" part of Jesus --- anyway.... the question that I really have is... what does it mean to blaspheme against the holy spirit--- whatever it is it is unforgiveable... so I'm under the impression that it has to do with just ultimately rejecting God-- since that is the only thing that I can think of that would lead to being unforgiven.. but some other verses will help me better understand this.
Forum: Question & Answer · Post Preview: #2417 · Replies: 1 · Views: 43

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Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.


I thought twelve was symbolic of being complete or something to that effect... what is the significance that one of Jesus' disciples turned him in...if the Jews were after him so fervently you'd think they'd be able to get him without Judas... and it was God's will that Jesus put his flesh to die anyway.. so why is Judas used???
Forum: Question & Answer · Post Preview: #2241 · Replies: 3 · Views: 96
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What does a morning star mean?


Rev 2:25 But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.


Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Forum: Question & Answer · Post Preview: #2022 · Replies: 4 · Views: 87
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A discussion awhile ago came to mind and here I am again wondering,"what is evil?". I first would think..well it's anything opposite God...but Isaiah says that God created evil..so then I thought.. well evil and wicked seem like the same concept and man's heart is desperately wicked.. so in what way is God able to create that?


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

How can something be evil if everything is in God's will and if God created evil haw can it be against His Will...or are there things not in His will that He allows???
Forum: Question & Answer · Post Preview: #1677 · Replies: 2 · Views: 48
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QUOTE(Evangelion @ Apr 13 2006, 02:15 PM)

Condemnation; in this context, the ultimate condemnation, which is death without the possibility of resurrection.


so its a resurrection of no resurrection?